Creation vs Evolution
Pseudo-Christianity and the Creation/Evolution debate
Quick update until I have more time:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6549595.stm
http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?tab=av&q=creation%20museum&recipe=all&scope=all&edition=d
Scrap my updates - Pat Condell has covered it perfectly!
This page is now restructured, and has two separate themes; the points relating to the Creation/Evolution debate, and, below that, points relating to why Christians have got it so wrong. It was also updated on 14th April 2001 to correct some appalling spelling and grammatical errors (hey, I was busy!). I do not intend to update the core content as I really can’t be bothered to waste my life arguing with fruitcakes.I spend several years being fascinated by the argument involving the creation of the mankind, the universe and what has happened since. I have read many arguments on both sides, some of which I have linked to below. A large amount of these links point to the
talk.origins archive, a website for the
talk.origins newsgroup. (if that doesn’t work, click
here)
My friend has provided the following “evidence”, based on Scripture, for the existance of a young world.
- God spoke the following words directly to Moses;
- Genesis I specifically says that each of the six days of creation consisted of one evening and one morning.For example; “And so the evening and the morning were the fifth day” (Gen 1:23)
-
Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day (Gen 1:27), and became the parents of all the people that have ever
lived (Gen 3:30).Genesis 5:5 states that Adam lived 930 years before he died. Therefore, the time from the sixth day of creation until Adams death was 930 years. We know that the creation days were short in duration because, firstly, they each consisted of one morning and one evening, and, secondly, Adam lived through at least part of the sixth day, plus the seventh, and still “only” lived 930 years. - Genesis 5 and 11 provide a detailed genealogy from Adam to Abraham.Gaps are precluded because the age of each patriarch is given at the age of his sons birth. We are told, for example, that Seth lived “105 years and became the father of Enosh” (Gen 5:6). We are also told how old each patriarch was at his death. Thus, the time from creation to Abraham is clearly in the order of a few thousand years.
- The historical lineage from Abraham to the present is well understood.Scripture provides a detailed history from Abraham to Christ, and our present day calendar measures from Christ to the present. The total time period is a matter of a few thousand years.
“For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them..” (Exodus 20:11)
So that’s the creationists standpoint. I used to think it was harmless in itself, but creationists are out to force this view upon people, and, more worryingly, to get creation taught as fact. All references to evolution would be removed from the education system. One scientist in Australia who is particularly concerned about this is Dr Ian Plimer, who wrote a rebuttal to many of the creationist lies in his book “Telling Lies for God”. Dr Plimer is so incensed by creationists, that on April 7th 1997, he started a law suite against Ark Search America.
You can read about the trial
here
Fundamentalists are just the worst! Fundamentalism states that, from the first page to the last page of the Bible, every single word is the truth. From the creation in Genesis (in six days, 6,000 years ago) until Revelations, which says we’re all going to fry…and soon. A “fundie” believes in
- Noah’s flood (animals loaded on a boat at the rate of 260 pairs per second, and then kept alive by one family, not taking into account their special feeding needs, or the fact that the methane produced would have killed everyone in about 1 day)
- The end being nigh.
- The sun orbiting the earth.
- Dinosaurs roaming the earth at the same time as man
etc etc.
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When I asked how they know of the earths impending fate, the answer I got was “Just look at pollution. God is winding the earth down in preparation for the second coming”
Pollution. That must be it! Silly me! The fact that smog no longer hangs over London, there are fish back in the Thames, we are reducing the hole in the ozone layer, and the fact that life expectancy has increased 20 to 30 years in the last century has nothing to do with it.
I put this to Sophie. The reply?
“So what? Before the flood, people lived for nine hundred years”
I had been told that arguing with fundamentalists would be like banging my head against a brick wall, but infinitely less productive. I never realized it would be quite this hard, let alone so surreal.
Assuming that we were created, the good Lord presumably gave us a brain the think with. He just didn’t quite tell the fundies how.
It only takes a little bit of thought to realise other holes in the argument. Lets see now…
The ark was supposed to have been covered in pitch…but fundamentalists say that pitch was formed by the weight of water crushing all the trees in The Flood. And this flood, according to the Encyclopaedia Brittanica, happened only 200 years after the pyramids were built (2575-2465 B.C.E.,). Funny that the Egyptians never noticed the flood and that their history continued right through that period.
Just browsing through the newsgroups, I picked up these wonderful “in-a-nutshell” descriptions of fundamentalist dogma…
“I get the impression that the most fundamental creationist doctrine is infallibility of (their interpretation of) scripture. If one bit of it is wrong, they say, you can’t believe any of it, which would mean Christ hasn’t really saved them, which is just too intolerable an idea even to think about. From this doctrine ultimately come no death before the Fall, a global Flood, and all their other silliness. As you can see, it’s not just biology, geology, physics, chemistry, astronomy, history, and theology which creationists oppose; they contradict basic logic as well.”
“Scientific creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with incredible arrogance.
Creationist:
(1) One who follows creationism.
(2) A moron.
(3) A person incapable of doing math.
(4) A liar.
(5) A very gullible true believer. ”
So, which side do I stand on? Well, I’m sorry, but I’m as little bit sceptical of the creationists, as they seem withdraw some of their more bizarre ideas after an embarrassing incident. If they believed so strongly in something such as the dust on the moon argument, the search for the ark, and the decay in the speed of light (which most creationists now distance themselves from). I’ve yet to be persuaded either way, really. There are holes in both arguments, and when I look at the complexity of this whole earth we live on, and the beings that inhabit it, it’s very hard to imagine it all being an accident. I’m not arguing against the creation as such. That was never my point. But who was there at the beginning of the world? No-one can prove whether it’s 6,000 or 600,000,000 years old, but I’m happy to hedge my bets on the latter for now.
Where has Christianity gone wrong?
The Observer. As it goes on to say, it doesn’t mean to explain away all the mystique of some things which are hard to explain. It doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t believe if one wants to. But didn’t we all guess that the soul is all in the mind in the first place?The author Gerry Spence, in his book “How to argue and win every time” makes the following excellent point: Understanding the Power of GodIn the same manner that we bestow our power on our parents, we also bestow power on God. God’s power is our power as well. If this were not so, would we not be continually and urgently implored to give our power to God. Having followed the admonition to deliver our power to God, we then beseech Him to answer our prayers and to return to us the power we vested in Him in the first place…. One cannot expect more from God than we have given God. If we have given Him no power, He has none to return. Therefore, if we recognize that all power is born of us, ought we not keep our power in the first place?Besides, no true God would want all our power. He has plenty of the stuff, the power of the Universe-all the Universes. No merciful God worth our worship would covet our puny power and at the same time admonish us not to be covetous ourselves. No merciful God worth our worship would deny us the kingdom of heaven for retaining our power, for our power was given to us - not to return to God, but to return to man, is that not so? By exercising our own power justly, wisely, lovingly, are we not acting in a way to please God, any God? Is not true respect for God the exercising of our power in such a way that we are respected?
Finally, here’s a little something I found in February’s FHM magazine (a men’s magazine in the UK) (no…not that kind of men’s magazine!)
“The Devil, we are told, is evil, wicked, malicious, and will Lead good people from the path of righteousness. The majority of fine folk in the world do, indeed, steer clear of the Fallen Angel. But what threat, exactly, does he represent to us? What do Lucifer’s minions really believe in? How is it that the dark side has come to be viewed so unfavourably? Christians and devil-worshippers do agree on some points. They all believe that, at some point in the near future, there’ll be a confrontation between the forces of good and the forces of evil: Armageddon. The reason for the split between the two camps can be found in the Bible. God threw Lucifer out of heaven because he began to question God and was spreading dissension among the other angels. Is this such a bad thing? Lucifer actually means “Light-bringer”, and followers of the cloven hoof, or “Extropians”, believe that Lucifer is the embodiment of reason, intelligence and critical thought. They’re also keen to point out that they stand for the exploration of new ideas and the pursuit of truth. Satan ’s followers are open in their relationship with the horned one. “Yes,” they will say, “I may speak in tongues. Yes, I may nail goat’s heads to the trunks of juniper trees on the night of the new moon. But what you consider to be outlandish beliefs justifying all kinds of wicked acts, I take to be my n’ght as an individual to follow my faith. God-fearing folk, on the other hand, will argue that theirs is the right way because they wish no one ill-will in the pursuit of their faith. This, plainly, is bollocks. A swift Look at what has been done in the name of Christianity soon puts the few dead sheep and occasional bonfire of Beelzebub’s fans in the shade. There is the small matter of the Spanish Inquisition, when nonbelievers had wounds in their thighs filled with molten metal. Then they were killed. Or the persecution, by almost every religion, of anybody who isn’t the same. Tongues have been cut out of those speaking against the prevalent faith. In contrast, most Satanists keep themselves to themselves, to the extent that many people don’t actually know what a Devil-worshipper really believes in. It’s this selfless, humble worship which some of the bigger boys of the worlds faiths could learn a lesson from. Come Armageddon, we’ll see who’s right…”
Other Links
New Scientist discussion on the subject
Explore the
Tree of Life which looks at evolution right from the first microbes.
decay in the speed of light,
inaccuracies in carbon dating which “prove” a young earth.
speed of light
One Response to “Creation vs Evolution”
Just a quick note from on who did not take the time to read the whole of the above, but there no distinction need be made between faith in God and His love for us all and the notion that we evolved from tadpoles. the notion that that God I believe in couldn’t or wouldn’t be involved in our evolution is, to me, absurd. the notion that we, as a race of beings, were literally molded out of clay is equally absurd. The transition from mere knee-jerk reacting, instinctual beings to sentient ones is where I see God’s direct involvement.
Just my 2 cents…
Peace -
Conrad
Care to comment?